Twenty-five years after the establishment of the Masorti (Conservative) Movement in Israel, it numbers 5,000 hardcore members, hardly a staggering success, and some would say a resounding flop.

But Rabbi Ehud Bandel, 48, president of the Masorti Movement, is optimistic, perhaps justifiably. Conservatives have made major headway over the past decade and a half in the High Court. A 1989 ruling forced the state to give Israeli citizenship to Conservative converts who converted outside Israel.

In 2002, Conservative conversions undergone in Israel were recognized for the purpose of registering as a Jew, which mainly affects non-Jewish olim under the Law of Return who wish to be registered as Jewish.

Soon the High Court will rule on giving citizenship to Conservative converts who converted in Israel. sSince the Israeli Rabbinate does not recognize any of these conversions, converts are prevented from marrying in Israel. Nevertheless, recognition by the secular State of Israel would be a tremendous boost to the local Conservative movement.

Outside the court, Conservatives have also made headway. For 21 months Bandel's movement enjoyed fruitful cooperation with interior minister MK Avraham Poraz (Shinui), though Poraz's underlings prevented him from doing what he would have liked to have done, says Bandel.

The future looks rosy. Constructive cooperation between the Interior Ministry and the Masorti movement is expected to get even better with MK Ophir Pines-Paz (Labor), a professed Conservative, taking over from Poraz.

Bandel says the Masorti Movement, with a network of 40-odd congregations all over the country, is also gaining grassroots support. Two new congregations, one in Ramat Aviv and one in Zichron Ya'acov, led by charismatic young rabbis, are growing quickly.

Congregants are well-educated, usually middle or upper-middle class. Many are Anglos, Western Europeans and, most recently, South Americans, mostly Argentineans.

Bandel's efforts are focused on winning the hearts and minds of hundreds of thousands of Israelis who are, in his words, "Conservative but don't know it yet."

In tandem with the establishment of synagogues, the Masorti Movement has a youth group, Noam, and a students' and young adults' organization called Marom. The TALI school system is also loosely connected to the Masorti movement, though the extent of its connection has been a source of dissent.

Bandel, a native Israeli, was in the first graduating class of Masorti rabbis trained in Israel. He represents the ideal of a new generation of leaders that breaks with the Anglo-Saxon immigrant mold to create a homegrown strain of Conservative Judaism.

As the leader of a religious group that is a reformist rival of normative Orthodox Judaism, Bandel is used to fighting an uphill battle against the religious establishment.

He has spent his years at the helm of the movement meticulously plotting its expansion. The success of that expansion is dependent on Bandel's ability to convince prospective supporters to join. As a result, he has obviously spent time honing the presentation of opinions on literally every subject from conversions to same-sex marriages and from interfaith issues to church-state relations.

Bandel speaks passionately and at great length on all these subjects. What is slated to be a one-hour interview with the Post turns into a three-hour exposition.

What is your goal?
I want Conservative Judaism to become a part of the mainstream. And I think that is what is gradually happening. A revolution is definitely taking place. When A.B. Yehoshua stated during an address [to the Conservative Movement] that "the Beit Knesset I don't go to is Conservative," the revolution began.

The Israeli Conservative Movement was established 25 years ago. Why is it taking so long to gain a membership?
I think it is in part due to demographic/ political constellations. As [journalist] Gershon Gorenberg has pointed out, the State of Israel was established by Jews who came from what he calls "Catholic" countries. Catholic in the sense that there is no church-state separation. Muslim states are Catholic in this context. Most Israelis come from either North Africa or Eastern Europe. Jews living in these countries tend to look at religion in terms of all or nothing. Either you are an Orthodox Jew or you rebel and become a radically secular Zionist.

How are you trying to overcome this obstacle?
We try to increase awareness by providing religious services for life-cycle events such as weddings and bar and bat mitzvot. There is a real demand for alternatives to Orthodox ceremonies. But we are also trying to build communities. We believe that if you build it, they will come. A year ago we sent Rabbi Elisha Volfin to Zichron Ya'acov. Today he heads a community of 40 families. In Ramat Aviv, Rabbi David Lazar helped expand a 40-family community to 60 families.

Where have you had the most success building communities?
We want to penetrate everywhere. But we do look for a specific niche. We have had a lot of success among immigrants from South America. Rabbi Mauricio Balter heads a vibrant congregation in Kiryat Bialik. And Eduardo Bitelman is the head of a primarily South American community in Ra'anana.

In Maccabim, where I was a rabbi, along with the core of Anglo-Saxons, there are a lot of Israelis who spent time abroad, especially in the US, and were exposed to Conservative Judaism. But I still don't have the stature of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

It sounds as if you are more successful in affluent Israeli communities.
We are not an elitist movement. In fact the challenge we face is to be as populist as possible. But you are right that in order to fully understand the intricacies of Conservative thought, one needs a certain amount of sophistication. One needs to be able to comprehend the delicate balance - the dialectic - between ideas such as tradition and change, rationalism and spiritualism.

On the one hand we have a critical approach to texts, and on the other hand we have a desire to preserve Jewish tradition. Normally, people who understand these distinctions are more educated. And the more educated usually come from a higher socio-economic class. But in order to really succeed we have to be a people's movement. At the same time, we have principles that will not be compromised. We will not give up our critical approach to Judaism in order to popularize the movement.

What other obstacles do you face?
Unlike Orthodox organizations, we receive no government funds for religious activities. It has been a Sisyphean struggle against our many enemies. And on top of it all we are operating on a very small budget. My annual budget is about $2.4 million. From that I have to pay rabbis' salaries, support our Noam youth group and provide alternative religious services.

You are saying that the US Conservative Movement, probably the most active and prosperous Jewish affiliation in the world, does not provide its Israeli representative with ample financial support?
A medium-sized Conservative shul in the US has a larger budget than we do. We are chronically scratching the maximum overdraft limit of NIS 2m. provided by the bank. We've had to delay payment of salaries three times recently. I make five trips to the US every year to raise money. But results are disappointing. I try to explain to them that the future of Conservative Judaism relies on their support.

Why is the Israeli Conservative movement called the Masorti Movement?
I think the term was intentionally chosen to emphasize the simple fact that a lot of Israelis are Conservative but don't know it yet. They call themselves masorti (traditional) with a lowercase "m". But they are really Masorti with an uppercase. But I think it is also a desire to speak the local language. I know in the UK it is problematic to use the term conservative, because it has political connotations.

What do you think of organizations such as Tzohar that try to make Orthodoxy more accessible and palatable to secular people?
Tzohar and other organizations like it are very positive developments. But I also think their appearance is a sign of our own success. The motivation to create Tzohar stems from a fear of losing the Orthodox monopoly on religious services. Many Orthodox rabbis realize, rightfully, that if they don't change, they will lose their monopoly to us. We are forcing them to make compromises.

That's what happens when religious services are exposed to market competition. And that is exactly what we want: a free market for religions. So far, that hasn't happened. Thousands still have to travel to Cyprus for non-Orthodox marriages.

So you want a separation between religion and State?
No. I think the state should fund religious studies and support Judaism. This, after all, is a Jewish state. But I want financial support to be made according to fair, objective criteria. I think there should be fair competition among Judaism's different denominations. The High Court recognized non-Orthodox conversions as legitimate.

Are they being done?
Until the Institute for Jewish Studies [which prepares prospective converts and includes teachers from the Conservative Movement] was established, we were doing about 100 a year. Now we do about 30 a year. That shows our cooperation with the institute.

We actually encourage prospective converts to get an Orthodox conversion. It is in their own best interests. They already have difficulties finding housing, employment, acclimating to a foreign culture and coping with the geopolitical situation. Why add difficulties?

Besides, in order to convert the huge mass of about 300,000 non-Jews living in Israel, there must be an organized state-backed effort. We want to be a part of that effort. But we have limited resources. We can't do it alone.

Toward the end of the interview, Bandel expresses his personal views on one of the most controversial issues facing Conservative Judaism: same-sex marriages. The official stance of the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards (CJLS), the movement's authority on practice, is to prohibit same-sex marriages.

Bandel's personal opinion is that recognition of same-sex marriages is both the right thing to do morally and also feasible from a tactical perspective. "I don't think such recognition would cause a split in the movement."

Maverick rabbis in the US are already performing such marriages and at least one in Israel, David Lazar of Ramat Aviv, supports them. Bandel stresses that he accepts the CJLS's decision and believes Israel should not be a pioneer in this delicate issue. "But I have no doubt that eventually it will happen."

But when it comes to accepting homosexuals to the rabbinical seminary in Israel, Bandel is adamantly in favor. "A homosexual cannot change the way he or she is. It should not stop anyone from becoming a rabbi. I don't want to lose a potentially great rabbi just because he or she is a homosexual."

Asked how he reconciles non-recognition of same-sex marriages with the acceptance of homosexuals as rabbis, replies Bandel, "the ideal is to accept and respect homosexuals as equals and that is precisely the message we send out to our congregants when we agree to train them as rabbis. "This illustrates perfectly the tension, the dialectic a Masorti Jew confronts. On the one hand, we have a strong obligation to tradition. But on the other hand, we acknowledge a constantly changing moral reality in which homosexuality is becoming normative.

"Orthodox and Reform Jews experience less tension between tradition and reality. For Orthodox Jews, everything that deviates from normative Judaism is taboo. For Reform Jews all you do is change the law. But Masorti Jews grapple with this tension. They say that innovations made by the Reform Movement reach Conservatives 10 years later. I agree. But that is because we face tremendous deliberations before we make a decision.

"I believe Israeli society identifies with this approach, which combines a serious commitment to tradition and a progressive, open attitude to change."